Officials Dismissed by International Amateur Boxing Association

Michael Lewellen, Director of Public Relations for the Goodwill Games:

"We appreciate you taking the time before tonight's boxing competition to join us.  As the (news) release states there's been a situation regarding boxing officials at the Goodwill Games.  We have the individuals that we think are the best subject-matter experts to address the issue regarding the officials who were suspended by the association.  To my far left, Mr. Arthur Tunstall from Australia; he's the AIBA technical delegate to the Goodwill Games, and Mr. Herb Embuldeniya, who is a member of the AIBA international jury which was involved in the discussions and the subsequent decision made today.  Each of them will make an opening statement."

Arthur Tunstall, AIBA Technical Delegate to the Goodwill Games:

"You have the press statement there which I think states the action that we have taken.  Boxing, as we know, is always a controversial sport.  It doesn't matter if you talk about if Jack Dempsey had beaten Joe Louis or if Joe Louis beat Muhammad Ali.  When you become subject to human brains making a decision, there is always a subject of a person having to use his own knowledge of the sport to make that decision.  And in this particular case, we have appointed referees and judges that we believe to be competent on the information we have on their background and their country and from their past performances.  But like everything else in life, some people do become a little bit lax and they may be taking things for granted too much, and that of course means we have to take action ourselves if we believe that they are falling behind the eight ball.

"In this particular case, we have taken the action and, as you have got on the press release, it is unfortunate that the Russians believe that they have been unjustly treated.  Certainly there have been questionable, quite questionable decisions, but I think that I have said that that is always the case with amateur boxing.  Of course it's not all one-sided.  There was one bout there last night in the 57-kilo division, which involved an American boxing with a Russian, and the American lost by one point.  We have had no complaints from the Russian team (about that particular bout). We just want to make it very clear that it's in our opinion that it's all not one-sided.

"However, the people who are concerned with the suspension… we have a meeting every night of the referees and judges to discuss the previous performances of the night before.  We go through each person individually. We look at the scorecards as they come out from the printout, and the next night we talk about it and we ask them why the mistakes occurred, and I might add that in the case of a couple of these gentlemen that we've coupled together tonight, if you look at the record you might find that two of them have not been used in the last couple of nights.

"So we believe that we have taken the action necessary, and we're certainly pleased that the Russians have decided to continue in the program rather than upset the goodwill that is created by the Goodwill Games.  So speaking as the technical delegate and vice president of International Amateur Boxing Association, I, on the behalf of the association, say we are very pleased that they will continue and we hope that whichever way the decisions go, tonight and tomorrow night, will be accepted in good sportsmanship by everybody.  Thank you."

Herb Embuldeniya , AIBA International Jury Member:

"First of all it's nice to be here and talk to you.  The normal process that we follow in the international games is that every day we evaluate the officials who have worked the previous series of bouts, and that continues on a daily basis, and we have a meeting of the referees and judges, and we point out any deficiencies that we detect, or any other that either by commission or omission that they do get into.  Now this happens every day, but as a tradition of normal that before the finals we meet and evaluate the work of the officials from the period before.  Now for example there are 72 bouts that have been completed as of last night, and those 72 bouts we have a record of the decisions made in every one of those bouts.  And we look at that pretty carefully to decide who will be the officials who will do the finals.  But in this instance we also have to take into consideration the protest letter by the Russian delegation where they felt that in many of the bouts that they were involved in, the decisions were against them.

"But we also have to point out that there are always close decisions in boxing, and there will always be.  There has to be a loser and a winner, and quite often officials from either side can say 'if we win, we won't do anything, and if we lose, we will protest or say something about the judgments.  And that has been normal.  But what we've done in this case is that we have recommended, or we have taken a decision, that four officials will not be used for the rest of the tournament, and that those officials will have to go for re-testing.  We have international tests for officials, to officiate at the international level.  They'll have to be re-tested before they officiate in any further competition.  And that's the state at the present time."

Q. Would these officials have been suspended if there hadn't been a protest?  Would they be officiating in the finals?

Mr. Tunstall:  "As I cited before, two of the officials had already been mentioned in dispatches, and they certainly would not be going to be used tonight.  If you look at the results you'll notice there were two of them that were not used last night, for this very specific reason.  I make it very clear when I talk to the referees and judges as the technical delegate of their mistakes, and I try to tell them that they have got to realize this is a sport that is very closely looked at by the media, we want to make sure there are no problems.  So those two people were not used.  Those other two people will not be used tonight or tomorrow night.

Follow-up question:  The referees/judges – were the complaints about them as judges or as referees?

Mr. Tunstall:  "Both.  The jury that sits up at the top of the table watches the monitor.  We can see how they're scoring and of course we can see how the referees operate.  I might add that all referees are required to do a refresher course every four years.

Q.  In the case of the Swedish referee, during the super heavyweight (91+ kg) bout last night, he allowed in some instances the fighters to clinch interminably, then he imposed a one-point penalty on one of the fighters (Alexis Rubalcaba of Cuba).  Is the policy to do that or to break up the clinches at the appropriate times?

Mr. Tunstall:  The situation is that a referee has to use his own judgment when he gives a caution, before he gives a warning.  He can give a warning straight out without having given a caution.  In fairness to the boys, a good referee will give them two or three cautions, and then give them a warning.  In that particular case last night, it became a wrestling match, and he should have taken action a lot sooner than he did.

Q. Should he have physically separated the two?

Mr. Tunstall:  "In amateur boxing the command is supposed to be good enough and training of boxers is good enough to know that when the referee says 'break' that they'll take a step back but to never use physical force."

Q.  What was the nature of the protest issued by the Russian delegation? Was it written?

Mr. Tunstall:  "The statement was that they were not happy and they might consider taking their boys home.  It was a written statement."

Q: Did they complain about specific fights?

Mr. Tunstall:   They didn't complain about any specific fights – they just felt that their boys were being treated unfairly, and biased decisions were being given.

Q: Can you describe any patterns that you noticed throughout your course of evaluating these referees?

Mr. Embuldeniya:  "The question is, in many of the bouts (in which) the Russians were involved, there were very close decisions, and some of the very close decisions that went into tie-breaker rule, and they felt they should have won those bouts.  Every coach believes that his boxer should win, and that's not unusual.  But that's exactly why we have fight judges making judgments.  And the collective judgment of the fight is recorded. Now, the Russians felt that overall, in the tournament, they felt that their boys were being penalized, or their boys are not getting a fair deal. But we pointed out to them that that is part of their own imagination, there are other boxers who also lost close decisions, but have not check taken it up. But collectively, they felt that more of their boys had sort of a rougher decision against them than the others, and made a protest, a written protest, and looked at it from that point of view. But we didn't pay much attention to their threat to pull the boxers out because pulling the boxers out of a competition has dire consequences that can have reactions later on when a country pulls out."

Q: What kind of dire consequences?

Mr. Embuldeniya: "Most likely, they would be penalized for having pulled out of a competition and be barred from another competition in the future, and their association would be written to about their behavior. There are implications of pulling out of a competition, however strong your inclination may be to pull out. And at the end they respected that, that when they realized the situation, they realized pulling out of a competition is not an answer, the answer is to see what we can do to get through with their position here. "

Q: Is it correct that Mr. Larsson could still in fact judge and Mr. Mika can still in fact referee?

Mr. Tunstall: "That will be discussed when I get to a meeting in about 20 minutes' time. I think that you will find that the decision will be that they will not be used in any capacity. "

Q.  You mentioned that tie-breakers were discussed.  So I'm assuming that bout 56, in the 60-kilogram weight class, was that specifically mentioned in the Russians' protest?

Mr. Embuldeniya:  "No, they did not mention any specific bout in their protest.  As an overall observation, they made an observation that they felt that their boxers were getting the short end of the stick. "

Q.  If the Russian delegation didn't sign the protest, would you feel that the judges would still be refereeing, or would they be taken away?

Mr. Tunstall:  "The situation is that at the present time they would not be used for the remainder of this tournament, and they will do a refresher course before they can officiate again."

Q.  Did the Russian delegation or team mention that it was overall the entire boxing, overall quarterfinals, everything leading up, or was this something that was specific to last night?

Mr. Tunstall:  "No, they were just speaking generally that they felt that their boys, not anybody else, that their boys were being treated unfairly.

Q.  Because it looks like this is a regular situation in amateur boxing, don't you think that it's time to change this scoring system?

Mr. Tunstall:  "It's rather strange, because the scoring system seems to be gaining more popularity with the majority of the boxing fraternity.  At one stage the American boxing association wasn't happy with the scoring situation, but they have said they're quite pleased with it now because I think they really understand what it's about.  As I said, you either sit there and think how you're going to judge but now with the computerized scoring you have a red and a blue button to press.  If you believe that you are seeing a scoring blow being delivered then you press the button.  So I don't know of any other way in which you can get a decision.  There is talk about putting a sensor inside the glove so that it will register a certain powerful blow.  But that's a long way off.  We've tried that with wires through singlets, we've tried it different ways, everybody forgets that it doesn't matter where you do it, if you put the sensor in the hand or put the wires on the body.  You can punch with the inside of the glove, the heel of the glove or the side of the glove, and it will register.  So the only way is to put in right in the center here, and then you'd have to regulate it for the 48-kilo division and increase the power right up to the super heavyweights.  But generally it is being accepted more than ever."

Mr. Embuldeniya:  "One of the advantages we have in using the computer is that we can trace the work of each individual judge right through the process of the bout, and the printout shows exactly how the judge has reacted through the pressing of a button, red or blue, or the period of the full bout, and that gives a better evaluation tool."

Q.  Is there a danger, as we enter the final round, that judges may now lean over backwards to give the Russians an even break?

Mr. Tunstall:  "I was expecting a question like that sooner or later.  No, I think that what has happened is, that might make those people still refereeing and judging a little more cautious as to the way they operate, either at the ringside as a judge or in the ring as a referee.  In other words, we've made a deterrent, and we believe that the people that we have left are the best people and we expect there would be no more problems.

Q:  There were two bouts, 56 and 57, I believe, that went to tie-breakers. In your review of that, are you both comfortable with those decisions?

Mr. Tunstall:  Yes, because you can only eliminate the highest and the lowest scores and then take the decision of the three judges that are left. I think that you probably know that in one of those decisions, even when that took place, there was still a tied score.  And that was when the judges were asked to press a button to indicate whether they believed the blue or the red should get the decision.  It was accepted by everybody.